New York After Dark | Dustin Pittman
Suzy Chase: When two podcasts collide, magic happens. Welcome to Dinner Party, the podcast where I bring together my two hit shows, cookery by the book and decorating by the book around here. We're all about cooking, sharing stories behind recipes, and creating a cozy home. I'm your host, Susie Chase, a West Village wife, mom and home cook. Inspired by Martha Stewart, trying to live in a Nora Efron movie, surrounded by toile plaid, cookbooks, decorating books and magazines, cooking in my galley kitchen and living my best life in my darling New York City apartment in the cutest neighborhood in the city, the West Village. So come hang out and let's get into the show.
Dustin Pittman: Hi, my name is Dustin Pittman. I'm on Instagram. It's Dustin Pop, and I have a new book that was just launched called Dustin Pittman, New York After Dark, and it's published by Rizzoli Books.
Suzy Chase: You've been photographing people for over 50 years in studios on the streets, uptown, downtown Paris, London, Milan, Tokyo, basically the entire world. So you started out at seven years old in the Adirondack Mountains.
Dustin Pittman: Well, actually I started out at six years old, but my grandfather and my aunt Catherine were photographers in assistants, and they would show me their work and I would look at all their images from way back. I mean crazy, crazy images. I mean, my aunt was photographing and my great aunt, my great aunt was photographing in 1917, my grandfather, I had this image of my grandfather photographing the photographer, photographing the nurse, holding my mom when she was born.
Suzy Chase: I saw that. That is an incredible image.
Dustin Pittman: Yeah. So I mean pictures like that, or like my aunt in the canoe, in the middle of the darkness of the Adirondacks, outrageous. I mean, for a 17-year-old woman to be up there. I mean, you're talking about 1917 when there's no paved roads and horse and buggy and you're alone around everything. I mean, talk about wildlife, and she loved it. And the images that she captured with a photographer and what she did, it was groundbreaking, pioneering for a woman, incredible independent woman. She was independent. So it's amazing. So that kind of stoked my desire and passion and love to pursue the whole visual poetry side.
Suzy Chase: In the book you wrote, when I got to New York City, it was a new frontier. I lived in a railroad apartment in Alphabet City, and the rent was $12 and 50 cents a month. To have that low and overhead meant you had freedom, you had freedom for creativity and foraging and identity. So you met Andy Warhol. Where did you meet him and what did he teach you?
Dustin Pittman: So when I got here in 1968, which was like the hippies, then there wasn't the beatniks anymore. The hippies in New York. Yeah, I did have, I had three room shotgun, railroad, flat. Those are the kind of apartments where you had a po chain toilet in the bathroom and you had a bathtub in the kitchen that you use as a table. You put a board on it on top of, and yes, including guests and electric, my room was $12 and 50 cents a month. So yeah, overhead was low. But in answer to your question about Andy, people would go to Central Park on Sundays and they would go to Bethesda Fountain, which is a beautiful fountain because the angel fountain beautiful. It's very spiritual, and they would just gather and walk around the fountain, and there was a cafe there that served Ria, and everybody would just kind of be in this beautiful, beautiful community of spirited, loving friends.
It was amazing. So while I was walking around park one day, I ran into Ingrid Superstar, one of the Andy War superstars, and she grabbed me by the arm. She said, oh, I want you to meet somebody. So she dragged me down to the factory at 33 Unions Square West, and I met Andy, and you know what? We just kind of hit it off and it was like 69, 70. It was like really early. We hit it off. We started going to cabarets, whether it was Tru Hellers or Reno Sweeney's or different cabarets and different clubs and backroom of Max's Kansas City. And he would introduce me to other people, the Warhol Superstars, and I became befriended them, Jackie Curtis, Hollywood Long Candy down, just like Lou Reed song, Taylor Mead, Sylvia Miles, everybody. And then we'd go to, we'd have every week, we had friends that had suites at the Algonquin Hotel, and we had our own.
1970, 71, 72, 73, we had our own Algonquin round table at the Algonquin Hotel. It wasn't Dorothy Parker, it was Andy Warhol and Larry Rivers and Charlie Henry Ford and Bob Coello and Fred Hughes, and me and Taylor meet and Sylvia Miles. And it was outrageous, Terry Southern, and we had all these people, and the dinner was on free. Andy loved free dinners and free stuff. But the thing is, and we had our friends, Charles Rydel and Jerome Hill, which were millionaires, billionaires. They were air to the Pullman company. So the thing is, they had suites of the Algonquin, and they also had a beautiful, beautiful 37 acre house and land out in Bridge Hampton. And we used to go out there weekends. So I would shoot a lot of 16 millimeter, eight millimeter super eight video film out there in the Hamptons, and we just cinema 'em a verite. It was called Underground Cinema then where you just pick up.
That's how we rolled in those days. There was no boundaries, no permits, there was no, I mean, it was just outrageous. Everything was accessible. You were able to be in these kind of storytelling relationships with friends. And that's what Andy, that's what I loved about Andy. The fact is that it was really easy. You just rolled with Andy. Andy wasn't Andy the superstar? You know what I mean? Andy wasn't like that then He was still, I know he had his art and he did the Whitney and a lot of different art shows with Leo Castelli and everything in downtown, in Broadway, but in Soho. But as far as being established and acknowledged in the art world, Andy wasn't like that as today. He always wanted to be more than what he was acknowledged, especially in the West Coast Hollywood.
Suzy Chase: There's this hilarious Andy Warhol story I want you to tell about Taylor Mead. And you said that Andy always wanted to pay the actors in his movies. He wanted to pay them with paintings. Will you tell that story?
Dustin Pittman: Well, yeah. Well, that's what Andy did. Andy's famous quote was, I'm broke. I'm broke. I have no money. I'm broke, I'm broke. Broke. When people worked for Andy in films like superstars, especially like Jackie Curtis and Hollywood Lawn and Candy, darn Taylor, me, they would try to paint it. Andy would try to pay him in paintings, give him a painting, and they would say, no, no, Andy, we don't want the painting. We want a hundred dollars. We want $200. Taylor and I were very good friends. We did a lot of movies together. I did a lot of movies with Taylor and really beautiful stuff, and we really got along really well. And he was an incredible, credible, intellectual and talented, talented performer and writer and poet. And the thing is, he was in the movie Lonesome Cowboys of Eric Emerson and Viva, and where they went cross country in the car. And the thing is, after the movie, Andy gave him four Mick Jagger lips, silk screens signed and everything, right? And Taylor had these silk screen in his loft. He was living on 14th Street University Place at the time. And they would be there. I mean, people would literally treat these paintings like just throw 'em in the corner. I remember, and I'll just get off, just one quick note. I remember being in Jackie Curtis's vain victory in 1971, and Andy Warhol donated a cow painting, and everybody on the stage trashed that cow painting.
By the end of the play run, it was totally trash with holes and everything. He is nuts with Taylor's story. Getting back to that, I remember in 1972, walking down sixth Avenue in the village toward a street, and at that time there was a store called Poster Mat. I dunno if you remember it, but they would sell posters in a lot of chaka stuff. I'm walking down sixth Avenue, it's in the summer, and Taylor's walking toward me and he's waving a hundred dollars bill. And I said, Taylor, where did you get the a hundred dollars bill? I missed 1972. So Taylor goes, I just sold my four Mick Jagger walls for a hundred dollars of poster mat. My God, let's go to the Ninth Circle for drinks and steaks. So we went to the Ninth Circle and blew the whole a hundred dollars in 20 minutes.
I mean, talking about four walls worth $40 million each at least. Oh my God. That's story. That's how it was. I mean, it's so weird. Mean, yeah, when the eighties came around and greed is good, and this whole thing came around with the art market, then it started, people started collecting and sort valuing art. A lot of the Warhol people, I, people I know, my friend, one of my best friends, Gerard Langa, who did all the silk screening for his Andy's assistant for years during the cows and the Maryland and the disastrous paintings and the wallpaper. He did all those screens. And Gerard said to me, I said, Gerard, do you have any screens? Did you ever take any painting? He said, no, I never took a painting.
Suzy Chase: Oh my God,
Dustin Pittman: All those years. So I don't feel bad because I remember Andy saying to me, Dustin, why don't you go in the back and take a painting? But a lot of times, the thing was this, in 1980, they had a art show in the porn theater in Times Square Art Show was a famous show. Keith Haring, Ronnie Cutrone, Basquiat, all the artists, incredible, Kenny Scharf, they were all showing that, right? And they were all hanging their paintings, and it was in a two or three floor porn theater, and they turned it into an art gallery. And I remember the last night of the show, and they still had a lot of paintings on the wall. They were all hanging out, these big paintings, big enormous paintings. And I remember them being there, and it was late around maybe 10 o'clock or something. And I remember someone yelling out saying, okay, you can take any painting off the wall for $50. I mean, God. And you know what? Nobody took a painting because the paintings were large and everybody was going to the Afterhour Clubs, and they didn't want to drag the painting there. Outrageous, huh? It was a renaissance. It was like a renaissance.
Suzy Chase: I'd love to chat about a few photos in the book, the first being the cover with Iggy Pop on his knees. Can you chat about that?
Dustin Pittman: Oh, that's a story in itself. Well see, Iggy, it's so funny because I have a show at the Herman's Gallery on 10th Street.
Suzy Chase: That's where I said, hey to you.
Dustin Pittman: Yes,
Suzy Chase: I love, two of my favorite people in the world are Emily Eerdmans and Kerry Robinson.
Dustin Pittman: Me too, me too.
I'm on the same page there. But anyway, yeah, I mean, it's so funny because Danny Fields and Danny Fields was the manager of Iggy and the Stooges. He was the manager of the Ramones. He discovered the do, he discovered mc five. So I mean all these people. So I was friends with Danny from when I got to New York. I really was hanging out in the back room of Max's and hanging out with Danny Fields and going to his loft. He would've a loft on 23rd Street, 21st street, I think. So when he signed Iggy from Detroit, he went to Detroit and heard Iggy. And when he signed Iggy in the Stooges, which considered Iggy and Iggy Pop Jim, how that picture, that's one of the first shows where I met Iggy at. And what I used to do, I used to go to Danny's house, and Iggy would come from Detroit, and he would crash at Danny's house. And so I go to Danny's house before the show, the concert, and Iggy had this thing where if a photographer got too close to Iggy, he would break the photographer's camera.
Suzy Chase: Oh my God.
Dustin Pittman: Iggy and I at Danny's house, we get high on weed and drink and stuff and get high. And Danny, Iggy Iggy said to me, Dustin, he said, you can get as close as you want to me, and I won't break your camera. That show was taken in 1970 at our gar. So that era was really fantastic because there was this big arena rock scene where yes, and Jetro toe and all these bands, these really extravagant stage things and these big arenas, and all of a sudden Iggy comes with Ron and Scott with their guitar just in an amp, and Iggy with his Iggy. So Iggy played at Ungaros and Max's, and there were small, small venues, very hardly anybody there, no stage whatsoever. The stage is maybe, I dunno, foot off the ground. And so I was able to get really close to Iggy. I mean, some pitches, I am underneath his body, but I mean really close because I knew he wouldn't break my camera. It was just exactly what was going on around at the time. No boundaries, you know what I mean? And just roll, just go with it. Cinema verite again, just like Warhol, the Polaroid School of Photography, I learned from Warhol, like spontaneous cinema verite, just let it roll.
Suzy Chase: There's a photo in the book of Mick Jagger with no shirt and only pants on, and he's tossing a bucket of water. Talk about that.
Dustin Pittman: Oh wow, that's a crazy shot. Oh, that was a great night. You know what? I made the mistake. I didn't contact the PR agency to get a pass, a press pass. So I called one of my friends who had a press pass, and they told me what it was like, and it was like this canvas armband, and it wasn't the Rolling Stone tongue then logo, but it was something else. But they described to me what it was. So I went to the art store and I bought a piece of canvas and magic markers, and they made a band that sort of looked. And so what I did was I went up to the garden. At that time, at the garden, you could bring a bag in at the garden. They didn't have a strict rule policy about checking bags that you only couldn't bring bags or whatever.
So I brought my camera and lens and I put my armband in my back pocket, and I bought a $5 nosebleed ticket. So when I went up to my seat and I put the armband on, and I started moving my way, maneuvering all the way down to the stage, and I got my camera everything already. And so by the time I got to the front of stage, there was about 13 photographers there shooting, and Mick was already on, and he started shooting. And I'm shooting away and firing away and saying, oh, this is great. I'm so close. Mick is doing his thing, and it's wonderful. So after the third song, the PR lady comes out and starts collecting the armbands from these 13 photographers that are shooting front of the stage. And I see what's happening, and she's counting the armbands. And I take my arm, male fast, slip to the side of the stage and hide.
And of course, she didn't know I didn't have an armband because I didn't have it. It wasn't legal. So anyway, I slipped to the side of the stage and I waited a couple songs, and then I went out to the front of the stage and I was the only photographer shooting the whole concert with Nick and Keith and everybody. It was a fantastic show. I mean, absolutely, I'm getting all these great shots. And Nick being as intelligent as he is, because he knows exactly what's going on. He knew. He knew exactly what I did. And he loved it. He loved it. I got away with it. He's a rebel. So the thing is, I'm firing away and firing away song after song after song. So Mick finally stops in between songs and he picks up this big bucket of water, and he looks right at me and points at me, and he takes a bucket of water and he throws the bucket of water at me. And as he throws the water, the water's coming at me and I snap the shot and I move out of the way. And Nick does one of these things with his hands on his hip like this. He knew exactly. It was so funny that, and so I pulled that one off and we kind of laughed about it. I remember later on meeting him, he so funny.
Suzy Chase: You also have a shot of Madonna at Danceteria in 1979.
Dustin Pittman: I was at Danceteria a lot, and she was there, and I just knew there was something special about her to be totally straight up. What caught my eye was her. I wanted her T-shirt. And so I said to her, do you want a trade? And she said she couldn't mess up her. She had this headdress thing on. There was aura. People are like that. They have this aura. They have this mystique, this spiritualness to 'em and this power. That's what she had then. I mean, there's no mistake. It was Madonna. Madonna. She's a survivor. An incredible musician, singer. People like, that's a handful.
Suzy Chase: So speaking of mystique, you have this side profile of Diana Vreeland, which I think is just incredible. And she seemed to be so intimidating, but she let you into her world.
Dustin Pittman: Well, I never was intimidated by it. Diana never, because she was always nice to me. She respected me. She knew my work. I mean, she looked at W, that's the term I was looking for. W she respected me. I mean, she knew my images and she knew that I could create a great image. My relationship with her started when she took over the costume institute to met. So with Diana Reland, that's where a lot of pictures are magical. I was in relationship. We already broke the ice before that. I think she respected me, my knowledge, I learned a lot working. I learned a lot. Working at, with John Fairchild and Andre Leon, he learned a lot of you learn a lot from these people. They're creative. They're a mess. They're incredible people.
Suzy Chase: My all time favorite photo in this book is Liza Minnelli at her birthday party at Studio 54 in 1979.
Dustin Pittman: The one where Betty Ford sitting on her lap.
Suzy Chase: Yes.
Dustin Pittman: Oh yeah, that's a great one.
Suzy Chase: Betty Ford,
Dustin Pittman: First Lady Betty Ford.
Suzy Chase: Oh my God.
Dustin Pittman: How unguarded moment is that? I mean, you can't do that today. No. I mean the next, I knew Liza already, so I was in relationship with Liza. I worked at the movie, the Sterile Cuckoo in 1968 up in the Adirondacks. So I knew Liza then when she was 17, 18 years old. And then down the road I'd run into her Reno, Sweeney's, Halston, and with Steve Rubell, whatever. We're just hanging out and just hanging out and they don't care. I'm not like this guy who's washing up their huffing, puffing, trying to get this, make this picture for the wire service. That's not the energy. And you can see that's not the energy in the shot. But yeah, it was the first lady Betty Ford sitting on Liz's lap. And this was before the Betty Ford Center,
Suzy Chase: Obviously,
Dustin Pittman: And just shooting away. They didn't. They didn't. That's how unguarded moment it was. It was like, that was beautiful. It's the same way. When I did the first Ronald Reagan inauguration, they brought me down because Nancy loved w Nancy loved being on the cover of W. She loved red, red, red, red, red, red when they had the inauguration. And they marched from the capitol of the White House or vice versa, white House to the Capitol. There was a motorcade. And all the press people, the photographers were in this truck. And I was the only photographer allowed by Nancy and Ronald Reagan to walk alongside the limo with Nancy and Ronald and to photograph. And it was all the way. And it was such an incredible experience with everybody, all the crowd in the audience. And I'm right with Nancy and Reagan. I'm literally a foot away from Nancy and Reagan. You
Suzy Chase: Were, that picture is really close.
Dustin Pittman: Yes. I mean, and the thing is, and I'm walking by the reviewing stand, and I see, and Pat Buckley sees me and Pat Buckley's there with a couple of socialites, because all the socialites, Ronald was Hollywood, so he had all the people from Hollywood there, from Roy Rogers and Dale Evans and Johnny Carson, Liz Taylor, you name, everybody was there, right? So there, they're in a reviewing stand. And so that night during one of the inaugural balls, because there's thousands of balls, but one of the inaugural balls, a big one with Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin and everybody was there. It was incredible. And all of a sudden, Pat Buckley comes up to me and said, Dustin, she said, I just saw you running alongside Nancy Ronald. What were you doing? Running alongside Nancy Rows in the reviewing stand. And it was an incredible moment.
Suzy Chase: So another incredible moment in the book is Brooke Shields is with Calvin Klein, Ian Schrager in the DJ booth at Studio 54. And I to imagine she must have just been like 16.
Dustin Pittman: She was 15.
Suzy Chase: 15,
Dustin Pittman: She was 15. And her mother, Terry, would be always with her. One thing about studio, I was lucky. I was one of the only few, I think very few, if not the one that Steve or Bella and let me stay after I was all allowed every nook and front of his studio. I never had a problem anywhere. I mean, I could go up into the balcony of studio and Truman Capote would be up there. I'd be sitting down with Truman, he'd be talking about his next book and drunk and drinking his whatever. And we'd sit there for an hour and I'd say, welche, I got to go. I got to shoot. I mean, that's how it was. It was really easy street. It wasn't about celebrity, but Bianca and Calvin and Paloma, Picasso and all these people, it was about that. But it was more like about being in relationship with this community.
Suzy Chase: I think my second favorite photo in the book is drum roll....... Jerry Hall in 1981.
Dustin Pittman: I knew Jerry Hall when she came to New York and Texas. See, the reason why I knew Jerry Hall, I lived on 13th Street and sixth Avenue, and my friend Liz Dinger was a writer, and Rick Dinger was her husband, the singer, Rick Inger did rock and roll ku. So Liz was friends with Jerry. So when Jerry came from Texas, she was staying with Liz. And that's how I met Jerry. Jerry Hall. And that's in the beginning, really in the beginning. And Jerry knew right away, right away the kind of guy she wanted to marry. Two years later into it, she was going out with Brian Ferry, and then she switched off to Mick Jagger. But Jerry was incredible. Jerry was incredible worker. She was just tall and beautiful, this long, beautiful hair, and just had so much style and elegance. She brought all this Texas beauty in this Texas like elegance with her. But yeah, I worked with Jerry a lot. I mean, it was a lot of fun. And Iman, I worked with a lot. I mean, we did a lot of trips together, Iman. She was a lot of fun.
Suzy Chase: So where can we find you on the web and social media?
Dustin Pittman: DustinpPop.com, on the web, Instagram on Dustin Pop. And also I have a show at the Eerdmans Gallery right now. And also I have a show that just went up at the Roxy Hotel, and it's called Unguarded Moments at the Roxy Hotel. I have the book that just launched a couple weeks ago called Dustin Pittmans. New York After Dark. You can get it in the bookstore, you can get it on Amazon, you can get on Rizzoli website. Just moving forward, just working and moving forward. Never stop shooting. I'm not going to stop shooting until my eyes are closed.
Suzy Chase: Thank goodness. Oh my gosh, this book is a real gem. Everyone needs to buy it. And I cannot thank you enough for coming on Dinner Party Podcast. This was so cool.
Dustin Pittman: Well, I can't thank you enough, and thank you for having me. I'm very, very humbled and grateful. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
Suzy Chase: Okay, so where can you listen to the new Dinner Party podcast series? Well, it's on substack suzychase.substack.com. You can also subscribe to Dinner Party for free on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. Additionally, the episodes will be available on both Decorating by the Book and Cookery by the Book. Long story short, you'll be able to listen to it virtually everywhere. Thanks for listening. Bye.
