Joie | Ajiri Aki
Intro: Welcome to the one and only interior design book podcast, Decorating by the Book, posted by Suzy Chase from her dining room table in New York City. Join Suzy for conversations about the latest and greatest interior design books with the authors who wrote them.
Ajiri Aki: Hi, I'm Ajiri Aki, and my new book, Joie: A Parisian's Guide to Celebrating the Good Life, is out now.
Suzy Chase: The opening sentence of your book really had an impact on me. Could you please read it? It starts with, "There's life and then there's the good life.
Ajiri Aki: "There's life, and then there's the good life. I first traveled to Paris from New York, for a single day, as an undergrad, and then again for a few months as a graduate student of the decorative arts. Those initial introductions opened my eyes to how Parisians lived so differently from me, but it was not until I returned for love, moving here permanently with my Swiss husband, and eventually became a mom to two very Parisian kids that I took a closer look at the culture. I noticed the driving force behind the way the French live their lives. It's the joie de vivre, the joy of living."
Suzy Chase: I would love for you to chat a little bit about how you found your joie de vivre in Paris.
Ajiri Aki: When I moved here, I just really observed how differently people were living their lives. I was career-obsessed. I was like, how was I going to advance in my career and my life? And people were just living at a different pace. There were different things that were important to them, and I think for me, as I... if you're living in a culture, in a society, you can only go against the flow for so long before you realize that these people are still working and still doing the grind, but they're enjoying life in a different way. And I started to slowly adapt to the way that life was here. And I think it was a couple of years in when I went back to New York and I realized how different I was and I was like, "Oh, okay, I've adapted to a different way of life here." And so I started to take note of what that was and do more of it.
Suzy Chase: In the book you talk about how Parisians find joy and what they eat, where they go, conversations they have and how they spend their time. It's the simple things and it feels like the polar opposite of the mindset here in the United States, where it's more, more, more and busy, busy, busy.
Ajiri Aki: Yes, absolutely. And then I started to see that people, during the day, would just sit at a cafe and it was just such a simple thing, just sitting at a cafe to have a cafe or have a drink, meeting with a friend. Having lunch is such a big thing. Actually stepping away from your desk and taking a break and having lunch is such a tiny thing, but actually it does bring you joy as opposed to hunched over your computer for a bazillion hours of the day. I adapted to all these little things and I started to, as I started to take stock in writing this book, realizing how they really are just a culmination of tiny, simple changes in life.
Suzy Chase: So there are chats interspersed throughout the book, and one I particularly like, is your chat with Vanessa Grall, founder of Messy Nessy Chic. I am an avid follower of her Instagram page and in the interview she says one of her rules is to always look up. As a Kansan living in New York City, I do that all the time. After more than 20 years in the city, I'm still constantly seeing it through the eyes of a tourist, which my son reminds me of, and it brings me so much joy. So that leads me to the term flaneur, which I learned about in the book. Enlighten me on the fine French art of flanerie.
Ajiri Aki: The term comes from this 18, 19th century person who would just wander around the city and take in the sights, and they were taking observations of who was passing by what was happening. And I think that there's something really special about doing that. And as cafe life is really big in Paris, just sitting at a cafe or wandering around a park or a neighborhood or as you said, just looking up where you are and observing people in spaces and buildings, you can do that on vacation, you can do that in your city and I think you'll be surprised at just, if you go into it with that attitude, what that does for your creativity and your spirit and your soul. That is joie also, that is joie de vivre.
Suzy Chase: And you can even do that heading to your therapist or doctor's office.
Ajiri Aki: Absolutely, yeah. And I say in the book, going to my therapist, I love. One day I just walked out, I had probably just sped walk out of there, and this time I stopped and looked down and there were these beautiful Art Nouveau tiles and I was just kind of like, "Wow, this building is fabulous, so fascinating." So you can do it anywhere and that little jolt I got from just observing the beautiful details of her building, it added a pep in my step when I walked out of there.
Suzy Chase: So what's your favorite neighborhood to stroll in, in Paris and why?
Ajiri Aki: I have to say Montmartre. I love it. I love being there. First of all, the history is just beautiful of that neighborhood, all the different artists and thought leaders who are living in that neighborhood, but also it's such a great place to be a flinner. You can just really get lost, all these little windy streets and sometimes you turn a corner and you're like, "Wow, this is actually an entire house and not just an apartment building," and the cafes and you turn another corner, it's a square, and the next thing you're at the top. I'm looking down upon the neighborhood. It's really my absolute favorite neighborhood to just get lost in and it's so romantic.
Suzy Chase: That sounds exactly like Greenwich Village where I live. It's windy, it's old.
Ajiri Aki: Charming.
Suzy Chase: Yes.
Ajiri Aki: I like these neighborhoods that have kept the history and the charm of the space. Something I learned through my studies was respect to the past with respect to history, while also adding modern touches. And I think you see that, where the architecture's just there, the buildings are there, and then the modern touches are just the people and the new cafes that come in.
Suzy Chase: Speaking of the past, when you were young growing up in Austin, Texas, was it a dream of yours to move to France?
Ajiri Aki: To be honest, not really. At that time I was dreaming about moving to New York City and I don't think I really understood that Paris was a place that was accessible to me that I could live. It just seemed so far away, another ocean away like, "How was I going to live there?" I think I loved it and I was definitely in love with Paris. I just didn't see that it was something that I could do that was accessible to me. So I think it wasn't until my twenties when I moved to New York, and I wouldn't say I had conquered New York, but I was like, "Okay, wow. I moved to New York and I'm living in this amazing city by myself," and I'm like, "Okay, I can do the next step. I can go across the ocean and live in another place though."
Suzy Chase: Really there's nothing I love more than a beautiful coupe. You say many champagne enthusiasts prefer the flute because it supposedly maintains the bubbles longer, but you prefer to enjoy champagne in a coupe. Talk a little bit about the design and beauty of it.
Ajiri Aki: I recently wrote an article for WSJ about how I fell in love with the coupes, and my first introduction was a neighbor here, who she opened this cabinet and she had all these different champagne coupes and I was just like, "Oh wait. But I thought, we're not supposed to drink champagne from coupes." And when you hold a coupe, the way that you hold the bowl with your hand is very glamorous and dramatic to me. It makes me think of Hollywood glam and I'm in some F. Scott Fitzgerald story. And when I was writing that articles, people are so right, two things that came up were, "I'm not drinking this for the bubbles. I'm not trying to stare at the bubbles. I want to taste the bubbles, but I'm not going to be drinking it long enough to be staring at the bubbles. So I don't care about the losing of the bubbles, I care about the beauty of this, the shape, the round shape of a coupe."
And also someone pointed out and, wow, I never thought about it, serving champagne in coupes allows you to be more attentive to your guest and to yourself because it is a shorter pour than a flute. And so you have to be attentive to your guest because you have to fill their glass a little bit more often, which I think is nice. But I just love collecting all the different shapes of coupes, etched, beveled, little jewel bulbous stems. You can just fall down a rabbit hole. And now I have a big sideboard, absolutely chock-full of different coupes and I'm constantly collecting them.
Suzy Chase: Another tidbit I learned from you is linen is the only textile original to Europe. In the early days of you living in France, most of the Parisian dinner parties, you were invited to, featured tables set with linens. So then you learned all about linen and created your own line for your shop Madame de la Maison. I'd love to hear about that.
Ajiri Aki: I think this obviously could be a different story for different people, but I did not sit at the table with linens when I was growing up. And so when I came here and I started to see people have tablecloths, napkins, I started to realize how that really elevates a moment. The linen is laid out, the napkins are there. A simple lunch, a simple tea just feels very special. And I like that. When I started to research and I wanted to make linens and what material I was going to use, I was introduced to a hundred percent flax line. And learning the importance of that to Europe and how Europe protects it and how sustainable it is because it's used from tip to tail, flaxseed oil, flaxseed. It's like wine. A good year is good linen, depending on the rain.
So I really fell in love with the material and started developing my own collection and learning more and more. And now, I love using linens. Why use a bunch of paper towels when you can have different color linens and pull them out and have your cupboard and mix and match how you want to, depending on what you're setting or what the occasion is.
Suzy Chase: I can't tell you how much I've learned from you. You say the wrinkle factor adds some texture to the table, which is such a relief.
Ajiri Aki: When you go back to the fact that, something I learned from my life here, is that the emphasis of gathering really should be on the people and the moment that you're creating. So that's one. And two, when you see linen that has a little crinkle to it, I feel like that texture is really charming and it adds another layer as opposed to... This is a very personal thing, even a white with a crinkle just for me is a style thing. I think it's charming. So I don't mind a little crinkle. I have tips to smooth it out, to care for them, but nobody's remembering that your edges, were perfectly seamed, they're remembering how you made them feel in that moment.
Suzy Chase: So you tell us to use the good China. I really, really adore that. In the eighties TV was your mechanism for learning how to become more "American," according to the television networks. I love this line in the book, "I appreciated the beautifully orchestrated chaos of different arms reaching across the pretty China, strewn about a lovely tablecloth. I wanted to mimic the adults who clinked silver cutlery to a crystal glass before making an announcement. And I remained fascinated by the ritual of slapping a fabric napkin on the table and storming off as a means of declaring drama." So how was your household different from what we were all seeing on TV at the time?
Ajiri Aki: We didn't have that formality or that coming to the table, formal or informal. I think Nigerian culture, we're not raised like that. There's a lot of food, there's a lot of getting together, a lot of gathering at the table. But that setting the table, which is why my mother was not... Definitely aided to her not wanting to use her good China. We were eating off Tupperware and the pot was on the stove and you just made your plate and went to go sit. And half of the time we were sitting at the TV watching a show. So I know that maybe a lot of American culture might have also been more like my family, when you have the TV trays and all that kind of stuff is going on.
But producers were using this table moment for TV tricks. But for me it was something that I was like, "Ah, everyone's coming together and sitting at the table," and I wanted that. I wanted to sit with my mom and my dad at the table and my brothers and to talk about our days and to have our plates and our forks and everything set. So we didn't have that. Everybody went to their different spaces and I think a lot of American culture is a little bit like that, which is something I love about the French culture, which is why it was given an UNESCO award in 2010 because it is something so special to sit at the table with your family.
Suzy Chase: You just mentioned how your mom wanted to use the Tupperware and she was always waiting for a special occasion to pull out the good China. Talk a little bit about the emotional interpretation between you and your mother when it comes to good China.
Ajiri Aki: This China that she was given for her wedding, it was so special to her. I never understood why she didn't want to use it. It was like, it's so special, it brings you joy. Why should you not be using it? It was a different time and they didn't have a lot of what they considered fancy, special things. And so maybe they wanted to preserve it. But the thing for me, I was so disturbed and I couldn't really understand that if something was so special and brought her joy, why would she not use it? Why could we not use it? It marked me in a way, that maybe I couldn't interpret at the time, but just to say, "Oh, well, when I have nice stuff, I'm going to use it. I'm going to enjoy using it." It just stayed with me in such a deep, profound way. And that's how I am now with my kids. We're not using a bunch of Tupperware, we're using just plates. That's how they grow up, because they're not being taught that they don't deserve or not allowed to use nice things.
Suzy Chase: I love that you collect stray coffee and tea saucers to use as plates under soft-boiled eggs or as a sauce dish or for sushi or pot stickers. I think that's so clever and beautiful.
Ajiri Aki: Yes. Another thing also, when you buy antiques in the 19th century when a proliferation of these objects hit the market because of what was happening in table design, I think that you have a lot of objects that people just in their mind, they think are just for that specific thing, but you can use them for so many other things. It's not just with these plates. I also realize you can always find little salt cellars, the little, they're connected and you can use those also, like if you're serving a meal and you want your soy sauce and your hot sauce or there's so many clever ways that you can find things in a flea market or just in your home and find multiple uses for them. So I try to highlight that and we don't have to just use one thing for one purpose.
Suzy Chase: On page 188, you give us 10 tips for antique shopping. You get a thrill from hunting. But for a lot of us, it's an intimidating task. I would love for you to chat about the 10 helpful tips.
Ajiri Aki: The first one is definitely, use your imagination, which is what we talked about earlier. If you see a random little tea saucer there and it's missing its coffee cup or tea cup, oh well, you know what, you can use that for something else. Could use it under a plant also, you can use it under, just because you love the pattern, you can put a pretty plant on it. So use your imagination. Number two, find perfection in the imperfect, which also goes back to number one a little bit. Things that are not a complete set or some patina on silver adds charm and a story. You find some beautiful chairs. Don't forget, you can re-clean the wood, polish the wood, reupholster. There's so many beautiful objects out there and you can give them a second life. So don't walk away from things that are a little imperfect.
Number three, don't be afraid to ask for a better price, because as a dealer, and as someone who talks to dealers a lot, they have created prices knowing that someone's going to ask them to reduce that price. So don't feel bad about it. Don't go crazy with your reduction of something selling for a hundred. Don't ask for 50. Don't be afraid to ask for a little reduction in the price. And in French, we always say that petit prix is the term you need to learn if you're in France, which is cute because it's just says, "A little price."
Suzy Chase: Oh, that is cute.
Ajiri Aki: It is, right? So number four, don't let an item be the one that got away. And I say this because there's times when you see something, unless you're like me and you go to the flea market literally every weekend, you might not know the value of something. So you have to decide is it the price you're willing to pay? So you see a beautiful lamp and you're like, "Oh my God, that lamp looks amazing. It's $500. Ooh, I don't want to pay that." But you know what? If you really want that lamp and it's a really special lamp by a designer or you like the style, bargain for the price and don't walk away because you're thinking you're being cheated. You're not being cheated. You choose the price that you're willing to pay. I've paid a certain price for something and it's something in my house that I still am excited to look at every single day. Don't let an item be the one that got away.
Number five, skip some stands, but dig deep into others. You don't need to go to every single stand. I wander and I walk a little bit. Some stands just pull me in because I like the display, I like the way it looks. Some stands look a little junky, but for me, I know that's where I might dig and find a really cute, fun bargain. So you just don't need to go to all of them. Number six would be to trust your gut. If something looks too shiny and too new, then it might not really be antique. If something is covered in dust and dirt, that's probably a sign that it's been living in someone's old house or old chateau or old attic just waiting for you to take it and clean it off. But just trust your gut if you feel like something seems a little off to you.
And number seven would be to educate yourself. Go online, takes 10 minutes of online reading to figure out the difference between porcelain or stone wear. Learning about the different design styles. For me, I collect art, I go to museums, I go to chateaus, I learn. So for me, I studied the decorative arts. So when I came to do this, it was 10 times more fun because I see something and I'm like, "Oh, that shell, it's definitely Rococo." You know, Rococo shells. Number eight, the early bird gets the good antiques, but the late bird gets better prices. If you get up really early, you get things before they're sold out. But when you go at the end, sometimes people are just, they don't want to pack everything up, so they're happy to give you probably a better price than they would've given you, had you showed up at 9:00 AM.
Number nine, be prepared and dress comfy. So have cash, because most people that are out, depending on where the flea market is, might not be taking credit cards. So have cash. And depending on where your flea market is, where comfy shoes. You don't need to be out there in high heels or shoes that are wheezing your toes. Just be comfortable, enjoy yourself, walk around.
And number 10, get to know your dealers. My dealers will text me all the time, "Oh, I found these coupes. Do you want them?" Or, "I found this thing." You can tell them what you're looking for. Sometimes even if you're not regular and you're just chatting them up, they appreciate someone getting to know them. And they might say, "Actually, you know what, I have this in my trunk." They put out a display, but not everything they have is out there, same as me. You go on my website, I have a bunch of things, but it's not all there. There's a lot of things in the closets at home that I just haven't had time to put up on the site. So I enjoy when people ask me or tell me what they're looking for as well. So yeah, that's number 10. Get to know your dealers.
Suzy Chase: You say you must have lived in a chateau in a previous life. What is your current favorite chateau?
Ajiri Aki: I would say it's a good tie between Chateau Chenonceau and Chateau Chambord in the Loire Valley. The Loire is just full of chateaus and I love them all, but those two are my favorite. I love in Chambord you have the double helix stairway.
Suzy Chase: I love that.
Ajiri Aki: I know. There's only two in existence and it's so lovely. It's like the double stairway, where a mistress could be going down one while a wife or a queen was going up another. So the two never cross. So I love that. Just really romantic. And I love all the gardens. So those two are my absolute favorite. And the towns have really great restaurants around to eat.
Suzy Chase: Where can we find you on the web and social media?
Ajiri Aki: You can find me on Instagram at Madame de la Maison, which is the same as my TikTok. Pretty new to it, but it's there, Madame de la Maison. And you can find me on my personal account, which is just Ajiri Aki, my first and last name. That account is more just my wanderings and my travels and my family life. Oh, you can also go to the shop madamedelamaison.com, where I sell antiques and linens and some new products, candles and also napkins.
Suzy Chase: One of my most favorite takeaways from Joie, is where you wrote, "A quick pop into a park or a stroll down a tree-lined street, will not only boost your energy level and creativity, but also help slow your heart rate, lower stress and bring you a moment of joy." I am thrilled you could join me today on Decorating by the Book podcast. Merci.
Ajiri Aki: Thank you for having me. You're welcome.
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