Ateliers of Europe | John Whelan and Oskar Proctor
Intro: Welcome to the one and only interior design book podcast, Decorating by the Book, hosted by Suzy Chase, from her dining room table in New York City. Join Suzy for conversations about the latest and greatest interior design books, with the authors who wrote them.
John Whelan: My name is John Whelan.
Oskar Proctor: And I'm Oskar Proctor.
John Whelan: And we have created a book together, called Ateliers of Europe.
Suzy Chase: Beginning in the Renaissance, ateliers were established as a place for European artists to work and teach their crafts. Centuries later, most of the spaces have disappeared. But as a select few continue to produce some of the world's most celebrated and sought after objects, such as crystal, ceramics, wrought iron fabric, book binding, mosaic and wood paneling. This visually stunning love letter to the art of craft takes us inside Europe's most illustrious, and in many cases, endangered decorative arts workshops, to profile how artisans continue to maintain the highest, centuries old standard of workmanship and creativity. So John, you are a specialist in heritage, design and creative direction. From 2017 to 2019 your company, the Guild of St. Luke worked on some of France's most loved culinary and cultural institutions. So how did you come to discover the atelier, when you were restoring brasseries?
John Whelan: Thank you, Suzy. That's a very good question. Essentially, when you are restoring a historic monument, every piece that needs to be remade, has to be made somewhere. So if we are talking about an art nouveau molding or cornice, that could be a decorative detail within one of the brasseries, you would need a specialist plaster company, in order to remake that piece. Which would generally mean molding onsite, and then taking it back to the place of work, in order to recreate it.
What I quickly found, when I was working on these projects, was that there were very, very few companies that were actually capable of doing this. So it was really through Googling and a process of trial and error, that I found the companies that do this. And they're quite prestigious. They don't do a lot of advertising. They're quite removed from public view, I would say. And it's almost a sort of scene for initiates. And it was kind of like pulling back the curtain on a world that I'd never really seen before. And I found it very romantic, poetic and inspiring. And I think that doing this large chapter of brasserie work essentially sowed the seed for the book.
Suzy Chase: In the book, you made an observation I found interesting. You wrote that nearly every atelier you visited had exceptional natural light. But most importantly, there was an authenticity to the spaces, that appeared to be a result of function over style. Can you talk a little bit about that?
John Whelan: Modern offices, by contrast, often try and cajole you into thinking that this is a stylish or fun place to work. Whereas, these ateliers really do the opposite, but in doing so, end up winning out. So they are purely functional spaces, with the tools of the trade laid out in a way which is purely functional. But they end up looking like installations, and they end up looking very timeless. So there's something quite accidentally beautiful about an atelier workspace, and this was immediately apparent.
Now, there is also a grandeur to the architecture because in order to house machinery and large objects, they tend to be high ceiling spaces, and natural light tends to flood in from above. So, they frequently have skylights. This was a feature of late 19th century and early 20th century architecture, for these spaces. So they end up feeling beautiful, just because of their volumes.
Suzy Chase: Why have you chosen to describe this book as an atlas?
John Whelan: We decided to describe it as an atlas purely to give it sort of like an ease of indexing. We wanted people to be able to browse the book by country, so you would be able to see the idiosyncrasies of a British atelier, versus a French or an Italian atelier. They are clearly different in feel and tone, and you almost feel the national characteristics revealing themselves in each location. So, that's why we did it. We wanted to be able to locate the ateliers on a map, and you would be able to essentially explore Europe, via these categories.
Suzy Chase: So how is the word "workshop" different from the word "atelier"?
John Whelan: I tried to explain that a little bit in the introduction. I think that there's a danger of saying that using the word "atelier" is kind of like an affectation, because "workshop" would totally suffice in most usages. However, what we've attempted to highlight here are the most beautiful workshops in Europe, and if not the world. So, there's almost something slightly elevated about these places. And there there's a tendency to use the word "atelier," rather than "workshop," as the elevated version. So we decided to call it Ateliers of Europe, not "Workshops of Europe" in order just to place the emphasis on the exquisiteness of the spaces, and what is produced therein.
Suzy Chase: Yeah, when I think of the word workshop, I think of something like in my garage, where I hammer some nails.
John Whelan: Yes. We didn't want to seem snobbish by using the word atelier, but we hoped that this book would almost be an argument for it being a slightly different categorization of place. So if you had to differentiate between sort of the workshop garage, versus the large sort of illustrious 100 year old space, then this is how you would semantically differentiate.
Suzy Chase: And Oskar, I love your work. You are a freelance photographer, whose work has been included in a wide range of projects, numerous design books, the World of Interiors, Architectural Digest, and the National Trust, to name a few. The photos in the book made me feel like I was right there, discovering the space. And I think this has everything to do with the fact that you shot these spaces with zero setup. I can't imagine that was simple. Did you ever feel like you needed to rearrange something, or adjust this or that, in the space?
Oskar Proctor: I didn't actually feel like I needed to move anything around, really. I tend to move around the things, rather than move them around, as an approach. Just touching a bit on what John said, about natural light. These spaces were, on the most part, designed to be used and worked in under daylight. Hence, the architectural addition of large windows in the ceiling, or wall or wherever. So actually, it was quite a natural process to just move in, and not set anything up.
Suzy Chase: For a recent episode on the podcast, I interviewed Owen Hopkins, who wrote the book, The Brutalists. I learned so much about Brutalism, and then my eye was drawn to page 278, Lenny AG Brutalist studio in Dubendorf, Switzerland. And what grabbed me was the visual interconnection between the architecture of the studio, and the metal furniture they create inside that studio. It's almost a continuous loop, if that makes any sense. Could you please chat a little bit about this?
John Whelan: I just want to mention that it was actually Oskar's idea to feature Lenny in the book. I think that you had discovered the company, and radioed into me, to suggest it. And it is interesting that you note this, Suzy, because it's one of the two contemporary counter poises to what is, in general, quite a historicist reading. In order to answer your question, I think you need to look at the nature of avant-garde Swiss design. There's something in the water clearly in Switzerland, that just creates very strong functional modernist design. And Lenny is no exception. I think it was Rudolph Lenny, the founder who set this in motion. And then his son was actually the one who commissioned the architect to build this factory. And it's difficult to say what came first, the work or the factory, because they seem to create a permanent loop. The work feeds off the architecture, and the architecture feeds off the work. So it's an extraordinary space that seems to live almost in a vacuum, and a style unto itself. And that's why we found it so unique, and why we wanted to include it in the book.
Oskar Proctor: Lenny was a brilliant example of pushing a door that wasn't necessarily open upon arrival, and finding something unbelievable, which were the locker rooms in the basement. And that ties in with your comment about total design within the spaces, and what that output is at the end. The locker rooms themselves were completely decked out, by Lenny. Maybe that sounds obvious now I say it, but actually when we traveled around many of the ateliers, when we would look in the locker rooms, or the kind of communal spaces, we would find that perhaps they were less in keeping with what that final product was that they were creating. But there, the benches, and the lockers, and everything were these immaculate Lenny creations, but in their use. For me, that was a real kind of moment of awe, in that place.
John Whelan: Yes. The Germans have a word for that, and it's Gesamtkunstwerk , which means "total artwork." And one can't help but feel that the Lenny manufactory is conceived, and purpose built, and thought of in every single detail. And I think that you also find that rigor and discipline in their products. So, it's quite an amazing place.
Suzy Chase: Well, thank goodness Rudolph Jr's wife, Doris, continued with the company, after he died.
John Whelan: Yeah, absolutely. And she was a remarkable figure as well, because she was an internationally renowned photographer, kind of involved in the avant-garde art scene in Switzerland, which was quite prevalent worldwide. And it was her who attracted the famous American artist and sculptor Donald Judd. They still make Donald Judd's minimal furniture to this day.
Oskar Proctor: So in the book you write, "A ramshackle courtyard of 18th century buildings in Vienna is home to the atelier and archives of the city's most revered maker of chandeliers and glassware, Lobmeyr." I am, and others, may be most familiar with the chandeliers and sconces in the foyer and auditorium at the Metropolitan Opera here in New York City. Please talk about this company, that is still going, after six generations.
John Whelan: It's interesting that you used that quote, with the word "ramshackle." I had to explain to the sixth generation of the Lobmeyr family that was not an insult, in the English language, and that ramshackle can actually mean "quaint," and be a positive thing, because they weren't keen for that to be published. But it is quite extraordinary when you walk into these spaces, the contrast between the precision of the glass-making, versus the... It was almost kind of like an old chateau. That would be a good way of describing it. It's like a Germanic chateau, in town. And within these barn like spaces, they etch and finish glass. And one of my favorite photographs by Oskar in the book is one of those famous chandeliers, the starburst chandeliers, which are hung in the Metropolitan in New York, and it's just under a plastic sheet. I think that nicely sums up Oskar's sort of don't touch anything approach to photography, in this book.
Oskar Proctor: That was another wonderful pushing a door that wasn't opened scenario.
Suzy Chase: Oskar, talk about your photo of the archives in the attic.
Oskar Proctor: Well, meeting Peter Rath up there was incredible, and John can tell you a bit more about him. But he actually opened drawers and doors for us. And that was another space which was aside from the perhaps more expected areas of the atelier, which gave us a full picture, I think, of the production that took place, and the design that took place. And I think that you don't immediately understand, just looking at the pictures of the workshop, quite how prestigious, and quite what the history is behind these spaces. So to find an archive that really completed that story, so beautifully.
John Whelan: I think that we were stunned to find that archive, and to meet Peter. And he was just pulling original Adolf Loos and Josef Hoffman drawings for glassware. So, those were the two most famous designers of the wienerwerkstatte, which was the turn of the century proto-modernist movement, which was essentially the template for art deco, going forward. So, it's very significant. And just to see him bringing out these original drawings, without white gloves on, we were kind of like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa." And it was very casual, and very amazing, and we felt very privileged to be in that.
Suzy Chase: It's funny that you use the word "casual," because every time I go to the opera here in New York City, I take a picture of the chandeliers, every single time. And I don't know why. It's the same picture, every time I go. They are just the most beautiful things I've ever seen.
John Whelan: They are extraordinary. It's an absolute design classic. But that might be the thing that which is most well known to you, in Vienna, that are not as well known as the glassware, for example, is considered to be le référence of glassware worldwide. And the designers that have created carafe's and wine glasses throughout the years for Lobmeyr, really make it stand out as a company.
Oskar Proctor: So John, you wrote, "An industrial estate in the South London suburb of Mitcham seems an unlikely place to find one of the largest inventories of 18th and 19th century chimney pieces and English country house furniture." How dreamy is Jamb?
John Whelan: Jamb is very dreamy, and we are very much looking forward to doing our book launch on Thursday, at the Pimlico Road premises, which is the shop. But the space that you have just described is the hanger and atelier. I think hanger is the right word, because it's about the size of an aerospace hanger. There could be jumbo jets being worked on in there. But you literally just have rows and rows of categorized antique furniture. And then in a separate part, you have, I would call it the patternation station, where all of the light fittings that they create... Based on original historic models, they create these wonderful finishes of patinated brass, verdigris, antiques, nickel and so forth. And this is a very artisanal process that they've mastered, in order to bring in the new creations, in line with the natural pattern of the antiques.
Suzy Chase: It's interesting, because in this book, I was so drawn to the synergy between the building, and what they make inside that building. And here, it's, as you said, a huge enormous corrugated steel building, but inside, are really old antiques.
John Whelan: Yeah, I think it's that juxtaposition, that contrast, which fascinated us. Jamb is actually a very well-known company, and a prosperous one. So if you open the pages of World of Interiors, you will frequently see an impeccable advert by the company. But very few people know about this space, and I think we're some of the only people to have entered it, and been allowed to shoot it. So, it's exciting to be able to reveal that to a wider audience.
Suzy Chase: I love that they also have a collection of rare ancient marbles. I think that's so cool.
John Whelan: Yeah. They have a collection of rare, ancient everything. I think that Will is one of the biggest hoarders I've ever met, in a good way.
Suzy Chase: In the best way.
John Whelan: In the best possible way.
Oskar Proctor: I think the thing that struck me in Jam, they have a space where they do stone work, and all of the dust is white marble. Or marble, and marble work, and all of the dust is white. And then you walk into the next room, where they do the patternation station, as John called it. Everything's kind of covered in a slightly sticky sort of surface. And I think that it was quite interesting to see an atelier at work, where there were different things being produced. Actually, we found that in all of the others, it was one technique, or one material being used. And there, they have various different areas producing different things, which was interesting to see that working in synergy, in the same place.
Suzy Chase: Do you think they can do that because the space is so enormous?
Oskar Proctor: I think it definitely helps.
Suzy Chase: So one last workshop I would love to touch on is Atelier Lorenzi, a casting atelier. You talk about how every inch of the place is filled with plaster casts from the company's 2,000 strong catalog, along with the sarcophagus like negatives, from which they spring to life. You write about how the busts create a sensation that one is in a haunted house of history. It almost looks like some of the horror movies' set designs, and breathtakingly beautiful, all at the same time.
John Whelan: Lorenzi is an extraordinary macabre place. The photos really do do it justice. This process of taking death masks, so casting the faces of dead people, is clearly a sort of Sherlock Holmes 19th century noir kind of thing to do. But they have decided to hang up all of these casts of the faces of dead people. And it just ends up looking like a horror set, like you described. But also, eerily beautiful. There's something ethereal about a death mask. They're not ho as horrific as they might sound, as I described them, if you know what I mean.
Suzy Chase: Oskar, when you stepped into Atelier Lorenzi, what was your first thought, when you saw all these plaster casts?
Oskar Proctor: The first thing that I saw was not the plaster casts. There was another building off the side, where some people live, that had a fabulous staircase, which is in the book actually, that picture, I believe, as I have a kind of ongoing obsession with staircases. So, I just got to gravitate towards them. But then, going into where the casts were, and the plaster was being made, it was just so beautiful. And the residue of the making there, it was one of the thicker surfaces of work, if that makes sense, that I saw, in really anywhere. And not to say that it wasn't clean, or that it wasn't maintained. But it was just that plaster had left so many marks of human use, and human making, and creation over so many years. It was a particularly special one, Lorenzi, for me.
John Whelan: I'm curious to hear about your ongoing obsession with staircases.
Oskar Proctor: Staircases, for me, are incredibly photogenic. I think there's not really much more that I could say about it. And also, you can find a staircase pretty much anywhere, other than perhaps a bungalow. So there are a lot of them about, and they do vary immensely. And they also... Tying in, I think to this residue, I'll keep calling it, of human presence, stairs always bear the marks of use, always. And that is something which I think in interiors, and in architecture, and in photography of buildings and spaces, is quite often shied away from, or not captured. And I think that for me, real space is what drives my work, and what drives my interest in taking pictures.
Suzy Chase: Of stairs
Oskar Proctor: Of stairs, yes. And actually, everything.
John Whelan: Yeah, don't worry, Suzy. There's going to be a book coming out, of just stairs. We've been thinking about-
Suzy Chase: Yeah, the Book of Stairs. So, where can we find you both on the web and social media?
John Whelan: Oskar, you go first.
Oskar Proctor: Well, my name is Oskar, with a K, Proctor. Or, oskar.proctor on Instagram. Or, oskarproctor.com on the internet.
John Whelan: Mine is gsl works, which is short for the Guild of St. Luke, so GSL.
Suzy Chase: This book feels like an exclusive behind the scenes private tour of the custodians of ancestral techniques, who continue to prop up the design industry. It's glorious. I cannot thank you enough for coming on Decorating by the Book podcast.
John Whelan: Thank you, Suzy.
Oskar Proctor: Thank you Suzy, for having us.
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