Knole | Robert Sackville-West
Intro: Welcome to the one and only interior design book podcast, Decorating by the Book, hosted by Suzy Chase from her dining room table in New York City. Join Suzy for conversations about the latest and greatest interior design books with the authors who wrote them.
Robert Sackville-West: I'm Robert Sackville-West. I am the author of a recently published book, published by Rizzoli, called Knole: A Private View of One of Britain's Great Houses. And it's about the story of and the design history, really, of Knole, a house in Kent in England where my family has lived for 400 years. I'm the 14th generation of the family to live here, and it is the story of that house. Taking visitors behind the scenes of this great house.
Suzy Chase: An archbishop's palace, a hunting lodge for King Henry VIII, and home for 400 years for your family, the Sackville's. Knole provides a window into English history, a private view of one of Britain's great homes. This book is a choose-your-own-adventure. We, as the reader, can determine if we would personally be up for the challenge of living at Knole, the massive stately home in Kent with a legendary 365 rooms, 52 staircases and seven courtyards. A calendar house. Now, what exactly is a calendar house?
Robert Sackville-West: Well, there were quite a few calendar houses, surprisingly, in the late 16th, early 17th century. And what it meant was that, yes, there was a room for every day in the year. There was a staircase for every week in the year, and in Knole's case, there was also a courtyard for every day in the week. That's how you get the 365, 52 and 7.
Lots of houses claimed this because the Tudors and the succeeding royal dynasty, the Stuarts, liked the, as it were, conceit of being able to call their house a calendar house, and what they really wanted to say was extremely large, which Knole is. But there has been so much work on the house over the past 400 years. Putting up partitions, changing staircases, removing rooms, adding rooms, that, if there's one thing for certain, it probably does not have 365 rooms, 52 staircases. It does have seven courtyards though.
Suzy Chase: The year is 1604. And through dealings with Elizabeth's court, Knole comes into the hands of Thomas Sackville, where he turns it into a Renaissance showhouse. Could you please talk a little bit about this?
Robert Sackville-West: Thomas Sackville was a cousin of Queen Elizabeth I, and he was a senior statesman and courtier at both the Tudor and the Stuart Courts. He was what's called lord treasurer, which was sort of the country's chief financial minister. And a lot of his contemporaries, including him, what they wanted to do when they achieved these very, very high public offices and all this status was to construct a great house in the country to show off their success. These houses were often known as prodigy houses, and there are quite a few of them around the country. And that is what Thomas Sackville wanted to do. He wanted to transform what had been a fairly drafty, ramshackle, medieval mansion into a great Renaissance palace that was fit for entertaining or accommodating his boss and benefactor, the king or queen.
Suzy Chase: Running a large estate in the 20th century was a massive undertaking, and following World War II, Knole was struggling to support itself. In 1946, Charles passed Knole for safekeeping to the National Trust with a lease allowing the future Sackville descendants to live in the property in private apartments unseen by visitors.
Before you, your wife and children moved to Knole, I think it was 14 years ago, you spent a lot of time wondering if you wanted to move there. I would love to hear more about that.
Robert Sackville-West: People might think it's slightly churlish that we took such a long time to think about really whether we wanted to live here. Most people would say, "Well, if you've got the chance to live in one of Britain's great show houses surrounded by all this beauty and all these treasures, most people would jump at it."
There is a downside or a compromise, which is one, I guess, of privacy because you are also electing to move from a normal private home into what is, in effect, a corner of a vast, public natural treasure with 150,000 visitors a year with whom you effectively share the house. That was the big question that we asked ourselves. Did we want to move into a place that we could never really call completely our own? And did we move into a place where there were a lot of constraints to what you can do, certainly, architecturally and in designing the way you lived. And also, moving to a place where some people, not us as it transpired, but some people might think that they were somehow oppressed by the weight of the past. My wife and I, we talked a lot about this before we to moved to Knole. We decided that we would give it a go, and we're very pleased we did because actually, we have enjoyed living here very much over the past 14 years. And we've brought up our children here and it has become home.
Suzy Chase: Now, I believe off the Great Hall, along the south wing of the house, is where you reside and there are different elements of English history that are reflected in Knole. What is your all-time favorite room?
Robert Sackville-West: Oh, difficult question. I think my favorite room in the private apartments is a room called The Colonnade, and it's a large reception room framed by seven marble columns that were part of Thomas Sackville's Renaissance makeover in the early 17th century. It has a wonderful plasterwork ceiling, it's south-facing, it's a very sunny room, and the walls are decorated in these wonderful early 18th century [inaudible 00:06:45] wall paintings showing niches with urns that appear almost three-dimensional. It represents two centuries, in a way, of Knole's multilayered past. The early 17th century, the marble colonnades, and also the early 18th century decorative scheme. And it's just a beautiful room and it's a great room for a party.
Suzy Chase: I think my favorite room is the Brown Gallery, a very special portrait gallery lined with 300-year-old Stuart-era chairs. Could you describe this room?
Robert Sackville-West: Yes. It's one of three principle galleries in the main exhibition rooms, and the idea was that each of these galleries leads from the great staircase to one of the principle bedchambers. And the Brown Gallery is one of these three galleries. And it is lined with portraits of Tudor and Stuart dignitaries. And, as you say, these wonderful and very, very rare 17th century chairs.
Now, the story of the portraits is that if you were a noble statesman of the 17th century, what you wanted to do was to prove to any visitors that your colleagues, your peers, were people of equal, if not even greater, power and prestige. So you lined your walls with pictures of kings and generals and cardinals to show your visitors that these were the people with whom you mix, just as some people today might include photographs in their houses of them with distinguished personages of the day.
It's a very dignified, all-of-a-piece sort of room. The furniture, which you mentioned, also has a story because many of these wonderful Stuart chairs, and in fact, Knole has probably the finest collection of royal Stuart furniture in the world, many of these chairs came from the royal palaces. From Hampton Court, Kensington Palace, White Hall. And they came here to Knole at the end of the 17th century because the Sackville of the day was Lord Chamberlain to the court of King William III. And it was the Lord Chamberlain's perquisite or perk to dispose of royal furniture from the royal palaces when it was felt to be out of date or on the change of a regime or whatever. And he could do whatever he liked with it. So Charles Sackville brought this furniture to Knole where it lined these great galleries and these beds, which dominated the principal bedchambers and has stayed there and survived, pretty much intact, for the past 300 years. But what is actually a collection of royal castoffs is, in fact, the sort of glory of Knole.
Suzy Chase: A collection of royal castoffs. But they're stunning. It's interesting to me, when I think of 17th-century furniture, I think of small furniture. From the photos, those Stuart chairs look to be very large.
Robert Sackville-West: Well, some of them are, and some of them, they're large because they are what is known as chairs of state. And these were the sorts of chair on which a monarch would've sat in, let's say, White Hall Palace when he received distinguished visitors. So they're not just for comfort and domesticity, they're furniture which makes a statement and connotes some sort of status. So these chairs of state in particular are pretty large, and also, the royal beds for which Knole is renowned also. These wonderful four-poster state beds with wonderful, gilt carving and very luxurious textiles. They are very, very impressive objects.
Suzy Chase: Speaking of the beds, in the book you wrote, "The state apartments on the upper floor, with their wonderful interiors, have been left, mercifully, untouched. Much of the furniture there, with its fragile upholstery, has remained under dust sheets and darkened room for long periods of time. And it is precisely this that accounts for its miraculous survival."
You have, as you've been speaking of, an internationally significant collection of furniture, textiles and works of art that is housed in the spaces. How are you improving conditions in which they're kept?
Robert Sackville-West: I think there's been a massive improvement in the past 10 years. Knole is, in fact, owned by, and the furniture, not necessarily all the paintings, but the furniture is owned by the National Trust, which is Britain's leading private charity. But it's a very, very large charity which looks after a great many national treasure houses and landscapes. And about 15 years ago, the National Trust launched a large restoration program to deal with Knole. And Knole's, as it were, crowning glory, its really unique collection or attribute is this furniture with these wonderful textiles. And the problem was, 15 years ago, that a lot of the fabric of Knole was crumbling. It was very, very damp inside. There were infestations of woodworm and death watch beetle. And in order to preserve this wonderful collection of furniture, it was necessary, of course, to restore the furniture itself.
But there will be no point in doing that if the house itself, the environment to which this furniture would then eventually be returned, was equally restored, made wind and water-tight. And so, the National Trust embarked on what actually became the largest single restoration project that is undertaken on a single house so far, which involved massive work to the external fabric, to windows, to stonework, guttering roofs and so on. And then, the construction of a conservation studio in an old barn that was part of the house at Knole where this furniture and indeed, pictures could be worked on by conservators. And so, gradually, the collection, the individual objects in the collection, are being restored and now returned to an environment that is probably as stable as has existed at Knole for hundreds of years. So actually, Knole is in rather better shape, and that's thanks to the National Trust, than it has been for hundreds of years.
Suzy Chase: In the book you talked about how Knole smolders rather than sparkles. Were you talking about the upper floors and the untouched furniture?
Robert Sackville-West: I was talking partly about that. And yes, I think that is really true of the furniture and the gilding, for example, on the furniture. It's not a glittery, gleamy effect, but a much more subtle, smoldering one. But I think, actually, that description is equally true of the house in its entirety. It's old, Knole. And it's always given appearance of age, even when it was first built. It prided itself on being what English scholars of the 18th century would've called an ancient pile. It's never been flash or glittery, it's always been slightly faded magnificence, sort of lustrous. That's the spirit of Knole. And I think that both when Knole was being conserved by the National Trust and anything that we personally have done in our own apartments has always been, while making things modern and workable, never presenting something that appeared too sparkly or brand new to preserve that magic, that smolders rather than sparkles.
Suzy Chase: Oh, I love that so much. Could you please read the paragraph on page eight?
Robert Sackville-West: "It takes a long time to walk from one end of the house to the other, and the main routes meander through a series of lobbies all come to sudden stops at dead ends. On the way, you encounter the most unexpected juxtapositions. An 18th-century fire engine here, a range of cobwebbed classical busts there. It is the bits and pieces that people could never bring themselves to throw away that reveal just as much about the past and its denizens as Knole's unrivaled collection of Stuart furniture, the toys, the jumble of letters, bills and photos spilling out of drawers. And of course, the keys. Keys that might one day unlocks no one knows which room, which chest or which moment in the secret history of the house and its inhabitants."
Suzy Chase: The other night, I was out to dinner with a good friend who works at Kravet here in New York City, and we were chatting about being burdened by objects and family heirlooms on a much, much smaller scale, might I add. So let me ask you about the feeling of being oppressed by the past. This is such an interesting concept for me as someone who is the keeper of my own family belongings and history. What are your emotions when it comes to thinking about having all of this responsibility?
Robert Sackville-West: If you look at the history, as I've done, of Knole over these 400 years, there have been individuals who have felt oppressed by the past. They have felt that they have some responsibility, I guess, first to their ancestors to keep the place going and not be the one who let it all fall apart. So I think they've been burdened, some of them, by the responsibility to keep the place going. And actually, they've also, some of them, been, I think, burdened by the fact that wherever they go around the house, there is some ancestor in a portrait on a wall sort of overlooking them and possibly, they think, judging them in some way. So they feel slightly exposed to the judgment of history. And I guess that if you are of a certain disposition, you could find this, and people have, a little bit gloomy.
It was something that Jane and I talked about when we decided to move here. And it was something that we, as I said earlier, that we decided to take on. And actually, one of the things that I did at around the time that we were making our decision whether to move into Knole or not, was I was actually writing a book. Not this one, but a previous one on Knole called Inheritance. And one of the reasons I wanted to write that book was to make sure that I understood these issues, that I understood the history of Knole, the history and the effect it has had on some people. That I was actually, in some way or other, in control of that history and therefore would not allow this history to dominate or oppress me. So I've become quite relaxed about it. And actually, I'm interested and, in a way, celebrating this past rather than feeling burdened by it.
Suzy Chase: I just adore the fact that you collaborated with the incomparable Ashley Hicks for the glorious photos in this book. Please talk a little bit about that.
Robert Sackville-West: Well, in fact, it was at a dinner in New York about four years ago that I met Charles Myers, who's the publisher at Rizzoli. And he said, had I ever thought about collaborating on a picture book of Knole? And I had actually thought about it in the past, but not really done anything about it. And then when Rizzoli, who must be about the finest publisher of art books in the world, approached me, this is absolutely something I would love to do. And then Rizzio suggested a number of potential photographers, but Ashley was far and away the right photographer for this book for a great many reasons. And I was really lucky that he was interested in doing this. He had some, not much, but some prior knowledge of Knole. But I knew, from work that I had seen of his, that he would absolutely capture the spirit of the place, which I think he has done.
I saw a book that he'd done, for example, on Buckingham Palace, and I thought, "Well, if he can make Buckingham Palace look so wonderful inside, what on earth is he going to be able to do for Knole?" And he really did it. And I think it's partly because he's a great, great photographer, but it's also because he really knows so much about design and decoration. I mean, far, far more than I do. He has a great eye, he has a great historical knowledge, and he is very, very professional. And he was a joy to work with. I felt very privileged.
Suzy Chase: In the middle of the pandemic lockdown, he would go on Instagram and flip through a design book and talk about features in this room or the history of that room. He knows so much.
Robert Sackville-West: He really does. And actually, he opened my eyes to certain aspects of the house. I mean, he was in, for example, what's called the King's Room at Knole one afternoon. And the King's Room is generally, the shutters are down and artificial lighting and there was nobody about, but he was able to briefly open the shutters and photograph the bed in natural light. And he texts me, I was in our apartments about a couple of hundred yards away. He texted me and said, "You've got to come up, Robert. You may never have seen this." I went up and there he was. And I had never seen the room bathed in natural light. So that was just one of the many ways in which he actually opened my eyes to the richness of Knole.
Suzy Chase: Before horse racing, deer hunting was the sport of kings. I'd love to hear a little bit about the deer that roam the thousand acres.
Robert Sackville-West: Even before it was a sport of kings, or at the same time as it was a sport of kings, it was also, surprisingly, a sport of archbishops. So when Knole was owned by the archbishops of Canterbury, these archbishops were great temporal barons. And Archbishop Bourchier, the first archbishop of Canterbury to own Knole, used the park as his private deer park for hunting deer. And it has been a deer park ever since. Not for hunting, I can assure you. Some members, I think, of that original flock, their descendants, these fallow deer still roam the park at Knole.
Suzy Chase: Another animal I would love for you to chat about is the leopard, which is the Sackville emblem. How did that come about?
Robert Sackville-West: The leopard has come to dominate Knole. On the stone gables of the house's perch, a total, I think, of 27 stone leopards. There are leopards woven into all the plasterwork on the ceilings of some of the rooms, into the woodwork. There are leopards that glow in stained glass windows at Knole. It is the, I would say, the leopard is the dominant animal at Knole.
Suzy Chase: I think I would choose the leopard too, for my crest.
Robert Sackville-West: Good choice.
Suzy Chase: So what projects are you working on these days?
Robert Sackville-West: Well, I'm working on one or two things like, discussing with you, this particular book. I'm also promoting the paperback of a book I wrote a year ago on the different ways in which Britain commemorates its war dead of the First World War, and how people searched for their missing loved ones during and after that war. Those are the two things I'm doing at the moment. And I will, at some point, work on some new project. But it takes me a lot of time actually to work out the subjects that I'm interested in, so I'm still digging around trying to find a subject that I really can get into in the same way as I did, for example, with this Knole book.
Suzy Chase: Where can we find you and Knole on the web and social media?
Robert Sackville-West: Well, again, I basically have no social media profile at all. Ashley's got a great one, and Knole itself, the National Trust at Knole, has a social media presence.
Suzy Chase: Well, thank you so much for giving us a wonderful look inside one of the great treasure houses of Britain, and thanks for coming on Decorating by the Book Podcast.
Robert Sackville-West: It's been a great pleasure. Thank you very much for the time.
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