DBTB Unplugged | Alex Back
Intro: Welcome to the one and only interior design book podcast, Decorating by the Book, hosted by Suzy Chase from her dining room table in New York City. Join Suzy for conversations about the latest and greatest interior design books with the authors who wrote them.
Suzy Chase: Welcome to my feature called Unplugged, where I chat with interior design taste makers. Today I'm chatting with Alex Back, the industry e-commerce veteran who co-founded Apt2B at the age of 26 because he saw a need for furniture that was better quality than the Scandinavian superstore we all know, but more affordable and less precious than a luxury boutique. He sold the company to a top 100 retail furniture chain. So to develop one of the most scalable and profitable business models in the retail furniture industry at such a young age, to me is super impressive. And Alex, now you've leveled up with your new venture, couch.com. On the website, you say, "Luckily for me, no one has an effing clue where to buy a new couch." I would love to hear about how you want couch.com to be the match.com of couches.
Alex Back: Yeah, that's pretty funny that I said that, and it's super true because people really don't know where to go to buy furniture, and I know that you live in New York City. That's where I grew up, and I think New York's a great example of that. There are clusters of furniture stores like chain furniture stores on certain streets in the city, and then there's the Pottery Barns and the West Elms, and then there's all these smaller mom and pop one location places that are good for certain things, but maybe not others. And I think the point of couch.com is really to help people in wherever they live, figure out what the best place is for them based on what they're looking for, their price point, their parameters. And how we're doing that is by getting some information from users when they come to the site. We're building a whole platform out right now that is very technologically advanced with some AI robots helping to get information from people, like what are the variables that are most important to you in your couch buying journey? So it gets people to think, "What do I need? When do I need it? Do I need a hot pink couch tomorrow that's great for cats and kids?" If so, you're going to be likely limited to certain retailers and we want to help you find those retailers right away so that you can get what you're looking for without scouring the internet for what is a very nebulous journey of couch buying these days.
Suzy Chase: So I was raised in Prairie Village, Kansas where we all use the term couch, and then I moved to New York City and all of a sudden started hearing sofa. So what is it? Is there a difference? I'm confused.
Alex Back: Yeah, it's basically just like if you consider yourself a fancy person, you say sofa, and that's why in New York, everybody ... No, I think it's really-
Suzy Chase: That's what I thought.
Alex Back: Yeah, well just to level set, they are the same thing for anybody wondering if there's any sort of, outside of colloquialism, if there's any sort of meaning or significance between the interchangeable terms. There's not as far as I know, not that I've uncovered anyway. So I think sofa is more of an industry term. It sounds better than couch. Meanwhile, I spent my life savings on the URL couch.com. However, I think most people call it the couch, and that's one of the things that I am needling in on here and focusing on. And I saw a big opportunity there. When couch.com was available for sale, I really thought about it. I'm like, "Well, let me do some keyword research." And it turns out that couch is the number one search term in the industry because I think most people, like your good friends and family in Kansas say couch.
Suzy Chase: My grandpa called it a davenport. Have you ever heard that one?
Alex Back: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. So we have some goofy articles on our site where we explore all the funny couch terms that our parents and grandparents and what they're called in other countries as well. So there's some funny ones in there. There's one called a fluffernutter.
Suzy Chase: I thought that was just a sandwich.
Alex Back: So did I until we started doing the research, Suzy and we uncovered some real, real interesting stuff.
Suzy Chase: So what should we know before we go couch shopping?
Alex Back: The biggest thing you should know before you go couch shopping is what you want. The more you are in touch with what you are looking for, the more you will know where to find it. So it seems quite simple. I always liken it to apparel. Apparel is something we've all been trained from a young age to know how to shop. We know how to find a good deal, we know what our size is. On the complete other side of the spectrum is furniture. We buy it very infrequently. We don't really know too much about it. There's a lot of mystery. So I think the biggest thing is really figuring out what the biggest things for you are. What are the leading variables, I like to say, in your couch buying journey. And oftentimes I've found, because I've sold a lot of couches in my day, people don't really think about it until they start dipping their toe in. They'll just be like, "Oh, let me just start searching and see what tickles my fancy." That's not even a thing. You know what I mean? "What piques my interest?" And so I think it's doing a little bit of early research and education can open up a can of worms, but it can also open up a world of understanding that you didn't have before. For instance, a good example is if you're a very tall person, you may need a sofa or couch that has a seat depth that is much deeper than you may find on your average showroom floor. That's more of an obvious example. I think the better thing is just to really think about what do you like about your current couch? What do you not like about your current couch? Make a little list and use that to sort of guide you. If you're not happy with how the fabric held up, then you're probably looking for something a little bit more durable and stain resistant. They seem like obvious things, but my experience has shown me that people don't really think about it until they've already started shopping. Does that make sense?
Suzy Chase: Totally. And speaking of seat depth, I've seen that Cloud Couch all over the internet, that's, I think, from Restoration Hardware. So I've sat in that thing and I sink down in it. Do you find it comfortable? What's the story with that darn couch?
Alex Back: Okay, so the Cloud Couch is probably the most popular silhouette or design in the furniture industry over the last 20 years. That's a big claim I'm making right there. But it's the most knocked off couch on the market. And over the last decade and change, every manufacturer has taken their turn at doing their version of the cloud couch. The cloud couch is for those who are unfamiliar, an ultra, ultra cushiony, sinky type of overstuffed feeling couch. Ironically, it's not overstuffed at all. In fact, it is a down feather blend in most cases, and sometimes there's a foam core in there, like a piece of foam to give it a little bit more structure. But generally speaking, the cushions are quite thin and that is what gives it this cloud-like quality. That being said, as you might imagine with thinner cushions that sort of are meant to be baggy and loose in a way, it's not as supportive as many other couches are. So the typical experience of the couch is you sit down, you fall backwards into it essentially, it feels amazing, and then kind of like a hot tub after five minutes you're like, "Okay, I'm done. Give me something ... It's time to go back to reality here. watch a movie?" So I think for some people, comfort is subjective. I think for some people it's the most comfortable thing. For reasonable people like you and me, Suzy, I think there are better couches for us out there.
Suzy Chase: So is there a huge difference between a $500 couch and a $5,000 couch?
Alex Back: Oh wow. That's a great question. I have an interesting answer for it. There's definitely a difference between a 500 and a $5,000 couch-
Suzy Chase: In your wallet?
Alex Back: Yeah, $4,500. It's not as much of a difference as people would think. What I mean to say is that once you get into a price point that's over 1,000 or $2,000, let's say, let's call it $1,000. If you're over 1,000 or $1,500 for a sofa or couch, it's going to be of substantially good quality. And you don't need to spend $5,000 to have a great quality couch is basically my whole approach to this. So I always encourage people to not just go for the most expensive thing or walk in ... I'm sort of hating on Restoration Hardware. It's a wonderful business for many reasons, I can get into that another time, but you don't have to just walk into RH if you want the best. You can do a little bit of digging, find some maybe more boutique brands, some of those mom and pops or single location stores that I was talking about before that make amazing custom-made sofas here in the US. The brand I used to run was one of those, and the quality was fantastic. We had a lifetime warranty and we were not charging $5,000 a pop.
Suzy Chase: I've heard you say really nice couches generally feel like really nice couches.
Alex Back: Yeah. Oh, I've said that. Yeah, you're right. You can tell when something's really not of good quality. Here are some telltale signs. It's really lightweight. If you sit down and it slides, probably not a great sign, although not the end of the world because a lot of sofas are lighter than you think they are. If it's on a wood floor and it slides immediately is a sign of a couch that might be lighter weight than you want it to be to be structurally sound for a longer period of time. Because generally speaking, the frames of more promotionally priced sofas are made with wood materials like engineer wood or plywood versus some of the higher end ones are made with much more solid hardwoods like alder wood. And that can really translate directly to the weight of the piece and the overall sturdiness. That being said, there's plenty of engineered wood MDF couches out there that are made from sort of the same wood that you would have a piece of furniture from that Scandinavian store you mentioned before, and they hold up for a long time. So it's really subjective. But the frame is one thing. The cushioning, you can kind of tell if cushions are extremely bouncy, bouncy foam where there's no give it all. That's a sign of a lower quality couch. If the fabric quality is very thin, that's a sign. If you pinch it and you can see where you pinched it for more than a couple of seconds, that's a sign of a lower quality couch. So I think that all resonates with everybody, we've seen, we've sat on these types of couches. I think what's more difficult for the average consumer is to figure out what is a really nice couch. And I think once you dip your toe into the education process and understand more about the materials, you're able to kind of figure that out. And when you sit on one, it feels like a really nice couch. It doesn't need to be $5,000, but you'll know when you know if you know. Okay, that was horrible. I'm so sorry for that.
Suzy Chase: So let's say we have an older couch. What causes our cushions to sag and how can we refurbish our couch cushions?
Alex Back: Okay, you might not like my answer for what causes the cushions to sag. People don't like to think about this sometimes because the fact is it's you. It's the person, it's overuse in a single area. That's the number one reason that couch cushions will sag. Usually it's the cushioning. A lot of people think it's like the frame or the spring's broke. That does happen, but very infrequently. Usually it's that someone likes to sit in their one spot, they don't like to move around very much on the couch. They sit in the middle seat, not on the two ends. Just to paint a clearer picture of what I'm talking about. And when you use any piece of foam, whether it's a mattress or a couch or a seat cushion of any kind, if it's not broken in evenly, it's going to start to sag in a certain area. So regular flipping of your couch cushions, assuming they're removable, another sign of a higher quality couch versus a lower quality couch. Your cushions are removable and reversible, remove them, reverse them. And if you can't, let's say like a chaise cushion. Now with a chaise cushion, everybody wants to sit with their back on the back cushions, however you really actually have to work and find a reason to sit on the front of it. And if you don't, find a way to evenly break in that part of the cushion. So an example of that, this amazing Salvadorian factory manager at the company that I used to run, we asked him for tips on this specific thing and he's like, "Take off your shoes, be in your socks, stand on top of the cushion, put it on the floor on a clean space and do a little samba." And you could picture him doing a little dance.
Suzy Chase: Yeah, I was going to say karate chop it.
Alex Back: Perfect. You want to karate chop it, you want to do a little anger management class of your own on this cushion. Whatever you need to do, evenly breaking your cushions and they will last a lot longer. It's been proven time and time again.
Suzy Chase: Okay. To me, in my humble, humble opinion, there's nothing more tacky than a sectional, especially the ones with the cup holders and the footrest that go up and down. Now you are the couch expert. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the old sectional.
Alex Back: Here's how I feel about reclining couches and cup holders. We could choose as design enthusiasts, and I know your audience specifically is of that ilk. We could choose to hate on these, but I choose rather to understand that they have a time and a place. Certainly when you go to a movie theater, you don't want to sit on a mid-century modern couch with no back cushions.
Suzy Chase: True.
Alex Back: You want to sit in the recliner. And so my point is it has a time and a place. Should it be the centerpiece of your home? I mean, I don't know. If your home has that super warm, if your whole home is the family room vibe, maybe it works. I've seen it look pretty nice in certain cases. However, yes, from a design perspective, it's generally looked at as being a little bit of a no-no. One interesting tidbit though is that these, power motion is what it's called in the industry or reclining couches, still dominate sales, dominate across the country. That may not be surprising to some, but I live in Los Angeles, you live in New York City, we don't see a lot of these in our homes and apartments. So you're like, "What? Where are they being bought? What do you mean they dominate the industry?" But they do.
Suzy Chase: Well, I think it's one stop shopping. You don't need chairs, you just have to get that sectional and everyone can sit.
Alex Back: Love it. If your first parameter, your leading variable, like I was mentioning before in your couch buying journey is that you have to seat eight people, your options might be a little bit more limited than you think, especially when you use that price filter. And you see that like, "Oh, an 8 person sectional that's not a reclining couch of this kind might cost you like $8,000." So I think there is a cost and a convenience thing as you mentioned.
Suzy Chase: What is your favorite type of couch?
Alex Back: There's a big craze these days and we talked about the cloud couch, and I think that's been part of this a comfort revolution. And you see a lot of the more fashion forward brands will have created these designs that are extra overstuffed and cushiony. I don't love the messy look. I like to keep it high and tight, but I don't want it to be uncomfortable. So I'm sort of what you would call a transitional style, my least favorite descriptive word in the furniture industry, and I'm using it here. But it's in the sense of I like the things that look clean and crisp and have those elements of a mid-century design, a timeless element so to speak. And at the same time, I do a little bit of fluff in there. So one example of that is something that will have clean, crisp, tapered arms, but the seat cushions will have a little bit of an alternative shape and will have a knife's edge. There'll be one seam instead of two. So it won't look like a smooshed down ice cube, the seat cushion, but rather like a smooshed down marshmallow. So I like a juxtaposition of those two, kind of like a mullet. It's short in the front and party in the back.
Suzy Chase: So are you a throw pillow guy or no?
Alex Back: I used to have a girlfriend who was super into the Pottery Barn catalog and we had 19 blankets and 42 pillows on every chair and couch in the house. And that's not me. I like to keep things clean. I'm personally fairly minimalist in my approach to design, so I like one or maybe two nicely placed toss pillows. Only exception to that is if the style of the couch is meant to have a whole bunch of throw pillows, like one where we call it built in back cushioning, meaning there's no actual or obvious cushions on the back. It's one of these ... Picture something in Don Draper's office in Mad Men. Something that literally you need to have some pillows there for it to be comfortable and it was meant for you to sort of gussy it up with those. But generally one, two max.
Suzy Chase: So when we buy a new couch, should we get the warranty?
Alex Back: That is a great question. I think it really depends on two big things. The first thing is how much it costs. Warranties can be very expensive. Generally speaking, they should be for a couch, and we're talking all in, accident protection type warranties. Not just any sort of limited warranty, but "Oh, you spill something on it, you make a mistake, your kids spill, some of your friends spill some red wine on it" and they'll do something for you to help you. Those should cost around 10% of the couch and I can do a whole seminar on the couch warranty business because it's a whole beast in and of itself. But the one thing to know, my little insider tip is that warranty companies actually charge very little to the retailers that sell them to the customers. So a warranty, a couch warranty will cost a retailer, like I used to be very, very little and then I will have marked it up like crazy to sell it to my customers. Why is that the case? I don't really know. It's just a very high margin product in this particular industry. So sometimes you'll see a little bit of gouging in certain areas. If it's 20% of the purchase price or 25% of the purchase price, it's probably too much. So you want to make sure you're getting a good value there. Comparing and contrasting the percentage of the overall price among different retailers may give you a little bit more context there about whether you're getting a good deal or not. The other main factor is just quite simply, are you the type of person that's going to exercise a warranty? Have you ever done that before? I'm not a warranty guy. I've sold plenty of warranties. I know that with me, I'm not somebody who sees things or objects in a way that I feel like I need to keep them around forever. I sort of like ... Even with my little kids and pets around, if something happens, something happens. And that's just part of the life cycle of a piece of furniture or anything else. That's my personal philosophy. So I think understanding, are you someone who's actually going to use this at some point and go through the trouble of filing a claim? If you are, it might really be worth it because I've seen some amazing things happen with people who needed help and had an extended warranty and they were very pleasantly surprised.
Suzy Chase: Now to my segment called Home, where I ask you to describe one memory of your childhood home and please start by telling us where it was.
Alex Back: Well, I grew up in Brooklyn, New York. I grew up in not the Brooklyn that most people would probably picture. I grew up in this one sort of odd Victorian house neighborhood where my parents bought in at just the right time, and then it started getting a little bit more popular, these old houses that needed a lot of love. So I remember my couch growing up, it would be kind of foolish of me to not talk about couches here, but it really is that. That's one of my big memories. My parents had this sort of 70s vibe, still exactly the same, this room, tan wallpaper all around the room, dark brown carpeting with a very thick pile and everything was brown. Every single thing in this room was brown. The couch was this brown, velvety velour, and it had already been around for 15 or years or so when I was a kid. So I have a lot of memories of sitting on this couch. I can smell what the cushion smelled like if I had my face in one of them, and I could hear the radiator hissing in the winter if I think back to it. So there's a lot of nostalgia. And actually, not to be too cheesy, but when I was doing logo design for couch.com, I really wanted something in that brown and burgundy-ish. It ended up being more purple-ish, but it was the inspiration, my childhood couch for the color. I was like, "It needs to be something super warm like this couch was for me."
Suzy Chase: Where can we find you on the web and social media?
Alex Back: Well, I'm pretty easy to find, couch.com is the website. All of our handles are @couchdotcom like spelled out D-O-T-C-O-M, and I'm very communicative person. If anybody wants any couch buying advice or wants to reach out to me with any ideas or opportunities, it's alex@couch.com.
Suzy Chase: This has been a blast. Thanks so much, Alex, for coming on Decorating by the Book Podcast.
Alex Back: Thank you, Suzy. It's been a pleasure to be here.
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